David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen. And while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, my guest today is Dr. Mark Esper, who served as the 27th, United States Secretary of Defense under President Donald Trump, he has spent his whole life in military service. And I gotta say, he is proof positive that we can accomplish amazing things when we stay focused on the mission. If you're like most leaders, you're dealing with a million details a day. And it's just way too easy to take your eye off, the bigger goals you're working toward. But this conversation with Mark will remind you why it's vital to stay focused on the mission. It's how you bring people together and navigate situations, even when people don't see eye to eye. And I gotta tell you, Mark knows a thing or two about that after his time in the Trump administration. If you've ever disagreed with your boss, and let's be honest, who has it, you're going to love these insights. Before we jump in, though, I want to add one more thing. This Saturday is Veterans Day when we honor all the people who have served in the United States military, and the incredible sacrifices they've made in service of our country. And I can think of no better conversation to mark the occasion than this one. And thank you to all of you out there who are protecting us and keeping us free. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Dr. Mark Esper.

You know, I want to get into how you lead and how you climbed the ranks to become the Secretary of Defense. But first, let's start at the beginning. What's the story from your childhood that really shaped the kind of leader you are today?

Dr. Mark Esper 2:02 

Oh, boy, that's a good question. You know, I was born in a small town in southwest Pennsylvania called Uniontown, Pennsylvania, just about 45 miles south east of Pittsburgh or so. And it is now on the map because it has the only city in the United States that has two Secretaries of Defense, myself and George Marshall. And I'm nowhere in his leg. But just the same. I like to say when people ask versions of that question that people from that area, certainly George Marshall was, was known to bring a great deal of patriotism to the job, a kind of common sense, kind of that hard work ethos of the region. And kind of those are the core values that shaped my view. And then I guess it goes without saying it's treat everybody the way you want to be treated. Right, the gold rule.

David Novak 2:50 

Right. Absolutely. And, and you went on to go to the United States Military Academy. What took you to West Point in the first place? Yeah,

Dr. Mark Esper 2:57 

look, another great question. Nobody in my immediate family served in the military. But for me, it was a calling. And I was always interested in the military military history. When I went to see my guidance counselor, 11th grade, I found a brochure, if you will, for West Point, and boy, it I read through it, and it hit me like lightning that this is the place I need to go. This was the answer. And it took off from there. And so it just kind of answered everything that I wanted to do with regard to serving my country and, and how strongly I felt about things at the time. But of course, this was, you know, Ronald Reagan was just installed in office. And he brought so much appealed. For me, to me as as the leader of our great country,

David Novak 3:35 

you distinguish yourself at that the military academy, you received the Douglas MacArthur Award for Leadership? What do you learn at West Point that every leader should know? You know, one

Dr. Mark Esper 3:48 

thing that West Point teaches every leader is the importance, the foundational importance of character, and purpose. And it's summed up in the West Point motto of duty, honor and country and, and so on the Honor aspect, of course, for four years, it's drilled into you, a cadet will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do. And somebody recently said, you know, when you first attend the academy, that sounds like a hard rule that you need to avoid. And by time you leave, you realize it's a hard rule you need to live your life by and so and so when you take those values in that's inculcated around you for four years. And then of course, it's reinforced in the army in a different way. It just really had a big shaping moment on me and impact on me that guided me for the rest of my life and certainly was pivotal. And as I write my memoir, as I became Secretary of the Army and more importantly, Secretary of Defense,

David Novak 4:40 

you know, you are an infantry officer with 100 and first airborne division in the Gulf War. As a leader, what's the big shift you had to make from planning for battle and then actually being in battle?

Dr. Mark Esper 4:53 

There's a saying in the in the army, at least Train as you fight, and I was blessed to serve in a great year. A 101st airborne division and we trained every single day as we fought. And needless to say, by time we got to the desert, and we conducted aerosol operations deep into southern Iraq. You know, we did things exactly the way we did it there. And so in some ways, you can't wait till you're in the fight to learn how to fight, you have to do it in training day in and day out. And I think that's one thing that our military overall possesses in ways that many militaries in the world don't. And that is you have to practice what you intend to do in combat. And that becomes a habit. And that's very important. It's and it's not just in terms of tactics, but it's, you know, putting your soldiers first it's making sure you suffer with them the same conditions that they're suffering. And in all those things that make our military, our Noncommissioned Officer Corps, the best in the world,

David Novak 5:44 

you're admired for being incredibly level headed person, regardless of the external pressure or the noise that you face. Can you tell us a story of when you that was really put to test when you were in uniform? I

Dr. Mark Esper 5:59 

can recall when we were flying into into southern Iraq for the air assault, and we were told that there was chemical weapons being used on the ground. Or another moment, we were told, we were in an operating base, we were told to Iraqi t 70. Twos were coming our way and as to remember my view and a couple others, our view was oh, okay, well, here they come, let's start getting out our anti tank weapons and start digging in and we're gonna have a fight. And you know, nobody ran around panic, and you just kind of had to pretty much expunge yourself of emotion and just deal with the, with the problem in front of you. And think through a comprehensively net was kind of how we were taught and groomed to face things on the battlefield. And, of course, by the time I get to DC, it's a different Battlefield, right? And you those kinds of reactions, and tendencies are built into you by that point in time.

David Novak 6:46 

You know, you spend 21 years in uniform, and you had a myriad of roles outside the army. Eventually, you landed at Raytheon where you spent seven years as a as a lobbyist. How did you go about influencing people to partner with Raytheon for defensive contracts,

Dr. Mark Esper 7:02 

I ran a Government Relations team. And I know the shorthand is lobbyists. But I ran a government relations team, we're responsible for doing government relations work at the state and federal level. But I was also involved in a lot of other things, mergers and acquisitions, where we put plants and facilities, things like that, that really constitute a large part of my time. So I got to see corporate America from that side from being on the inside about how corporate America thinks about business and how you think about utilizing your your talent and your technology and your research and development dollars. So there's that aspect of it as well. But you know, I was felt proud if I had to go talk to or take my CEO and to talk to somebody safer on Capitol Hill, because I knew that we were producing first rate weapons and that I, as a soldier, would want to be able to make sure my soldiers had the best tools and weapons and equipment on the battlefield that they could have. And it was all ultimately up to DOD, the procurers to decide what they want it but I thought it was a great company. I think American companies, defense companies do fantastic work, trying to deliver the best they can, at a good price. If you're to walk around the shop floor or the factory, you'll find that a good number of the people there are veterans, a good number of the people working men and women alike have sons and daughters in the military. People are out there because they believe in the mission, they believe in the country. And they want to make sure that our white war fighters have everything they possibly can all the tools and weapons to make sure that they not just fight and win on the battlefield, but they survive and come home intact. Now,

David Novak 8:31 

in 2017, you joined the Trump administration as the 23rd. Secretary of army, tell us how you got on the President's radar and why he selected you for that job.

Dr. Mark Esper 8:42 

Sure, at least I want to believe that I was kind of well known in Washington, DC. I had worked on Capitol Hill and both the House and Senate I'd worked in industry or I wasn't industry at the time, I'd worked in the executive branch. I have already been a civilian at the Defense Department, I was deputy assistant secretary of defense. And you know, I worked in the building twice before as a uniformed officer. So I knew my way around DC, I knew my way around the military people knew I was on active duty guard and reserve. And so I think I was just a known quantity. And people would put my name for it as a possibility to be army secretary and and it's stuck. And I think others within the administration reinforced that and I got the call. And that's one thing led to another and I was sworn into office later that year. In order

David Novak 9:27 

for any leader to make sound decisions, you've got to have the right information. And here you are now you're at the top of the Army, you know, what was your process to stay informed at this highest level? You know, you have to constantly

Dr. Mark Esper 9:39 

dig for information and not just within within the service but across DOD and outside of the Department of Defense, because otherwise you end up getting this very myopic look at your organization. But look, this is David where I had the virtue of having served on active duty for 10 years I served in the garden reserve for another 11 I had a broad experience In the United States Army and I had seen it from different angles. I'd seen it from inside. I'd seen it from industry. I'd seen it from OSD right, the office of Secretary defense, I'd seen it from Congress. So I had a pretty good idea of where the army was, and all these from all these perspectives. So that was another benefit I had. And then, look at the end of the day, I had a great team. The chief of staff the army was Mark Milley, the undersecretary, the army was Ryan McCarthy. And the Vice Chief of Staff was Jim McConville, who just who just gave up leadership with the army. So we had a good team, we were all combat arms officers, we had all served in wartime, we'd all served many years in the Army, we knew what needed to be done, as we kind of shifted the army from coming out of an era of counterinsurgency and low intensity conflict marked by Afghanistan and Iraq, and to a new focus on the likes of Russia and China. And it was a big shift a big transformation we knew we had to undertake. And, again, I think that teamwork, made all the difference in the world. How

David Novak 11:01 

do you go about strategizing with the team to envision the future needs of the Army,

Dr. Mark Esper 11:06 

you know, we were very straightforward, we would sit the four of us in a room and talk about what we need to do, we all had opinions. And again, most of our views lined up whether it was completely reforming basic training, we extended that to 20 to 23 weeks and did a number of other things to make it tougher and longer to restructuring the army adding more armored brigade combat teams, for example, because we knew that we were fighting a much bigger enemies with greater capabilities. We wanted to reform the physical fitness test, we didn't think the current one was living up to our expectations. So there were a number of things that we were aligned with. And each of us would tap into our various talents and experiences to really figure out what's the best way to move forward and in a short amount of time, because, again, I'd been in DC long enough to know that people usually don't last long in these jobs, they move out, they get promoted, one thing or another happens. And so you got to you got to take advantage of every moment, you have to move the ball down the field.

David Novak 12:01 

So you really moved into that job with an incredible sense of urgency.

Dr. Mark Esper 12:05 

Absolutely. I mean, I knew from day one that we had to, we had to get moving because the army, again, I felt was in some ways behind our last 20 years of our experience, again, was focused on low intensity, conflict, counterterrorism, we were still in many ways, drawing off the Reagan era of equipment, the Big Five of the Apache helicopter, the Patriot air defense system, Abrams, tanks, Bradley fighting vehicle, etc. We needed to completely modernize the army to deal with the Russians and Chinese. Again, we knew our physical fitness wasn't where we wanted, we knew we had to change the organization in the army. And we just felt I thought at least that there was this moment of time, if we can capture lightning in a bottle. With the four of us and the great army staff we had and the civilian staff we had, we could really make a difference and launch what I call it a renaissance. And I gotta tell you, them, what is it six years later, I'm pleased, really excited ecstatic about where the army is right now. It's, it's doing really well. And

David Novak 13:00 

I also understand that you made recruitment a big priority. How'd you lead on that front? Yeah, we did,

Dr. Mark Esper 13:05 

I came in office and found that we were probably going to miss our target. And we discovered a lot of reasons we first of all, there were problems within the Army recruiting agency. So we went about moving people around and out. We wanted to restructure that to be more focused on the right themes, we completely rejigger the recruiting campaign to get a different set of commercials to try and appeal to the breath of America's youth. And then we had this initiative where I think it was called the 22 city initiative where we decided, look, we can't just draw most of our talent from the south and the Southwest, we need to get up into the Northeast and the Northwest. And so we picked out these, you know, 2122 largest cities, and the leaders went out, we talked, we met with high school principals and school district supervisors. And we talked to mayors and governors, I personally visited Boston and Pittsburgh, and Cleveland and LA and places like that, to kind of spread the word and make sure that kids from all walks of life knew the opportunities that the army presented, right. And we would say you join the army, you can learn a skill, you can learn how to work as part of a team will teach your values we'll teach how to get up on time and get the work and the right uniform and, and do all those things that severe employers expect young people to be able to do. And that that was our mark. And I think after a year of pressing on it, we increased recruiting by by double digits. So it was a it was a good achievement. Fantastic.

David Novak 14:29 

And, and then you become the 27th secretary of defense. What was your relationship with President Trump at that time when you got the call to go into that role?

Dr. Mark Esper 14:41 

You know, I had had a few engagements with him on various things, you know, whether it was, you know, building the wall in the southwest border, because the Army Corps of Engineers was responsible for that. So I would see him at times and we talked at moments about NATO and the Army's role, and there were just topics like that. that right seem at the Dover, under tough circumstances where we were welcoming home a fallen hero. But nonetheless, we'd have time to talk to the president there. So those were kind of my engagements with him. So I, by the time I he's considering who to put in as secretary of defense in the, in the spring summer of 2019, I was unknown entity to him to most people in the administration. I think many thought I was doing a really good job as Secretary of the Army. So kind of all those things. I mean, members of Congress were happy with the with the Army's progress. I think all those things kind of culminated and helped, if you will get me over the finish line with him.

Koula Callahan 15:39 

Have you ever wondered what David is thinking as he interviews our guests each week? Or have you been interested in hearing David's take on some of the questions that he asks his guest? Well, I do and I know a lot of you do, too. My name is Kula Callahan. And together with David, I host the three more questions podcasts that airs every Monday. These episodes are just about 15 minutes. And in them, I asked David three questions that dive deeper into the themes of his episode with his guests. David shares incredible insights and stories from his career leading yum brands. And all of His answers are super practical and inspiring. Like this great insight David shared and one of our most recent, three more questions episodes. One

David Novak 16:21 

of the things that get in the way of all of us doing this, when we fail, is pride, we don't really want to admit to ourselves that we screwed up, and we don't want to miss it, anybody else that we screwed up. And I think that keeps us a lot of time, from adjusting and tailoring whatever we did to fail in the first place, so that we can move towards more of a success model. So you got to kind of put your pride in the drawer, see the world the way out really is not the way you want it to be. And then adjust and then move on. Get

Koula Callahan 16:54 

the three more questions, podcasts and your feed each Monday and dive even deeper into the episodes you know and love. Just subscribe to how leaders lead wherever you get your podcasts.

David Novak 17:12 

It's pretty well documented that you and President Trump didn't see eye to eye on a lot of issues. And a lot of times leaders have have bosses that they don't necessarily agree with. What advice can you give on on how to handle disagreements with your boss?

Dr. Mark Esper 17:27 

You're right, David, I don't think I ever had a boss that I'd agreed 100% with and, and don't tell my wife, but I don't agree with her 100% of the time either, right. So having an expectation that somehow you're going to always agree with your boss is just, it's absurd. So you got to find out whether your differences though, are, are really cut across your core principles and things like that. And, you know, that's where you kind of got to draw the line. Otherwise, I think you're responsible for doing everything you can to help your boss if you will implement his agenda. My role was always you know, it has to be moral, ethical and legal. And my view was always, I never jumped on the first idea, I always felt an obligation to kind of go back and come up with not just with the option that the principal wanted the boss wanted or the President wanted, but to come back and tease out the idea, think about what he's trying to achieve, and maybe offer up maybe some better ideas to get to that same position. And so there are a good number of things that I agree with the President on, whether it was securing the southwest border, I agreed with his drive to get the allies to pay more for for their own defense and for allied defense. I agreed with the you know, what he did on the Abraham Accords, certainly agreed with his willingness to support the troops and grow the defense budget. So a lot of things we agreed on. But there were some things I didn't agree on. And my view was always let me come back and give you some different options. And I talked about this in my memoir, and obviously, the one where I couldn't support him was, you know, his idea of asking America's military to go into the streets and, and use lethal force against Americans. So that was one of those areas where I just could not support that. And now look, I I told him that in the days leading up to that, but there are those points in time where you have to draw the line with your boss and say, I can't do that. You know,

David Novak 19:14 

it's interesting, you know, about this remark, because you wrote this book. It's an excellent book. And it's a very controversial book, a sacred oath, where you describe Trump wanting to do some crazy stuff, frankly, I mean, you know, sending missiles into Mexico to blow up drug cartels, sending our military into Washington DC when people were rioting because of George Floyd and, and shooting them at the knees. You know, just crazy stuff. As I read that and thought about that, you know, I've known a lot of bosses who kind of think out loud, you know, they think out loud and they don't necessarily mean it. How did you? How did you differentiate between bluster and this guy's really sick is about bringing troops in to Washington DC and using them against our civilians? Yeah, sure.

Dr. Mark Esper 20:07 

Look, it's a fair point. I've had bosses talk out loud, I'm tribes spoken out loud. But I've never had a boss speak out loud in those terms. And I've certainly never spoke out loud in it saying, you know, I wonder if we should send the troops into shoot people. But But look, let's, I know where you're going with that. Let me say this much. I think as a boss thinks out loud, you also have to think out loud with him. And as I talked about in the book, when the President talked about, you know, covertly, if you will, shooting missiles into Mexico to destroy drug labs. I was very honest to say, you know, Mr. President, we can't do that that would be illegal, it would be an act of war would cause problems. But let me let me come back to you because I look, I had experience on Capitol Hill, when we were helping the Colombians deal with cocaine production in that country that was working its way of course, up at the United States. We had planned Colombia, it was a program endorsed and supported by the Congress. But there so I knew there were other ways to go about tackling what was a very serious problem. And I talked about this, if not in the book, but certainly in interviews that President Trump was serious about, and concerned about what was happening to America with drugs coming across the border from Mexico with fentanyl, and it's killing What 70 80,000 Americans a year now. So I took him, I took it, the concern is very genuine, very sincere, but the idea of, of how to go about it outlandish. And so my view was, let me take that back and come back with some other ideas that may be more appropriate. And eventually what we came around to was this notion of putting naval and coast guard vessels into the Gulf of Mexico, and interdicting more than drugs coming north. So again, I think it's a responsibility. Going back to the theme here of this discussion, it's the responsibility of the subordinate, I think, to, to help the principal think through the issues and and kind of present ideas, options, if you were that are realistic, that are achievable, that are measurable, that that are supportable, things like that, and kind of rearrange that box for him or her, and then let them decide based on that. And I've done that any number of occasions, whether it was issues like this, where we're thinking about how to control drugs coming north or options against our enemies. Let me tee up some other options for you, Mr. President, to see what makes sense. And that way I can kind of draw from the depth and experience of my military commander. So I think, you know, again, whether you're in a job like I was in or whether you're, you know, working at, at 711, for your boss, who's a manager on duty that night, you owe, you owe your honest opinion. And you I think you have a responsibility to go back and find options, not just saying no to the one that's on the spot.

David Novak 22:42 

You know, I've heard you describe yourself as a circuit breaker. Explain what you mean by that? Well, this

Dr. Mark Esper 22:50 

came up in the context of critics at times would say, Well, look, if this was happening during 2020, which was the tumultuous year, why didn't you just resign, you should have, you should have resigned, and you should have come out and told the American people what was going on. And as if that would be some type of magic pixie dust that would get the president to behave the way others want him to behave. And my view was, I could be a circuit breaker, I could be the one in the room that could say, Mr. President, that's not the right way to go about it. Let me give you some other options and, and kind of try and solve the problem in a way that was, was more measured. And I had been successful at that for over a number of months in different situations. And plus, I was not confident that if I walked away, if I resigned, that he would put anybody but a real Yes, man in the job who would do exactly these things that concern me that I was concerned about the institution, and concerned about the country. And so I thought the notion of just resigning? Well, well, it's a credible, you know, it's respectable, but I knew it would only, you know, get two days of press, and people would say this, and that, and then everything would be the same. And I would have felt horrible in many ways, if I had left with 810 months left in administration, knowing some of the ideas that were being put on the table by those around the President, that were quite outlandish that there needed to be somebody there to put them back in the box.

David Novak 24:12 

Makes sense to me, you know, and the best leaders I know, Mark, anticipate, and they have contingency plans ready to go. Can you give us an example of how you've done that in your career?

Dr. Mark Esper 24:24 

Yeah, we you know, we always said contingency plans are we're trying to think through the next move, you know, whether it was at the end of the administration, we knew we had an American taken hostage and our diplomats were busy at work trying to free that person. But you know, we immediately move troops in a position to make sure that we could execute a hostage rescue mission if need be. So trying to anticipate and, and really getting back to your boss, I think you you owe it to your boss to make moves to make decisions to open up more options for him or her. In this case, whether it was that or whether it was when the our embassy was under siege. In any rock is constantly trying to make sure I can move the pieces around the battlefield or move forces around or do other things to make sure I gave my boss maximum flexibility, and did so in a way that he didn't have to tell me that I was anticipating and I was trying to get inside his head of where he might be. I think that's the responsibility of of any against subordinate working for bosses, try and think ahead, try and get inside your boss's head, anticipate where the puck is going. And be there get there before the events do.

David Novak 25:28 

I know things were extremely difficult working with President Trump, especially at the end, and you guys ended up parting ways. But you know, having a bit of hindsight. Now, when you look back at this, was there leadership lesson you picked up from President Trump that you're actually grateful for?

Dr. Mark Esper 25:47 

It's funny, you asked that question because everybody wants to put Trump in one box or the other. And depending on how you feel about them, people either hate him or love him or her they say the administration was a complete success or complete failure. And like I said, I thought there were a lot of successes in the Trump administration. I thought there were shortcomings as well. The President had his downsides. He had his faults. But look, one of the things that I thought he brought to the table, and maybe this was because he was not a product of DC and not, you know, served in government before, but he was an outside the box thinker. He would challenge conventional notions, I think in a positive way at times. Other Other times, not so positive. But but he brought that outside perspective, which I think is important. And I think it's critical for leaders in any industry, to make sure they cultivate either within themselves or bring in people that are the iconoclasts, the folks that look at things differently, or bring that outside perspective. And you see this now happening, you know, in boardrooms, across America, they're trying to put people on boards, or even CEOs from another industry, another sector, because they just look at problems differently and not a traditional way that a particular industry may look at things.

David Novak 26:55 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Dr. Mark Esper in just a moment. But you know, I had the honor of interviewing another great military leader, General Ray Odierno, shortly before he passed away in late 2021, General od owner was the guy behind the big surge decision that ultimately helped in the war in rack. And there's some timeless wisdom and what he says about making a really big decision like that.

Ray Odierno 27:21 

And I recommended one course of action because it ended up going with a different course of action. But the lesson for me as a military officer, in supporting the commander in chief president, is you got to give him options, you can't just say it's black or white. So I thought the one he picked us maybe a bit more risky. But when he said to do it, we executed it. You can't back your bosses into a corner by sharing, it's either this or nothing. If you're a good leader, you got to provide some options, because ultimately, they're the ones held accountable.

David Novak 27:51 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with the general episode 26 here on how leaders lead.

You know, as I understand it, you are a real history buff, how is your passion for history really impacted how you show up as a leader?

Dr. Mark Esper 28:12 

Well, I wish I was as good at history as I'd like to be. But look, obviously gives you a sense of context. And without repeating the word, it gives you a sense of history that we've been there before. And so how do you learn from it. And of course, we know the old saying that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But there are good examples. And I had at least in the political context, I had the privilege of working in DC for 2025 years on Capitol Hill. So there really wasn't a new issue out there that I can recall that really, I hadn't seen before, in one way, shape, or form, you know, the historical moment that I brought up at the time of the George Floyd shootings. And that the, the moment where President Trump and I came in most conflict was when he was talking about using troops in the streets of America. And immediately what popped in my mind were the protests of the 1960s, against the Vietnam War. And, of course, the shooting at Kent State. I knew not just the history of the shooting at Kent State by the National Guard and the fact that students were killed and wounded, but what it did to the army as an institution, and the army as an institution, and how it's regarded by the American people. And it took the army a long time to recover from that, in the minds of the American people. Its own confidence, if you will. And so as that moment was unfolding, that first week of June, I knew from a historical perspective that I did not want to take the army, the institution, the American people back down that path, we'd already been there, it was dark. And that's not where we wanted to go and repeat that mistake once again. So that kind of in that sense, history kind of gave me the context, a way to look at that, that I don't think the President had considered but for me, it was very real and and I know that's, that's what I had to preserve in many ways is that relationship with with the American people,

David Novak 29:53 

that's a great example. And and you've worked, you know, over the years with a lot of great leaders I'm sure who's influenced you the most and how, you know, I've

Dr. Mark Esper 30:04 

thought about that a lot over the over time, and I've had far more good leaders than bad leaders. And what I've always tried to do is, is think about what are the one or two things that I would take from each of the leaders and whether it was working on Capitol Hill or business or the military. And I always tried to find that nugget, the positive thing and so I, you know, without calling them out, there was one who was very good when it came to dealing with the press. Another one who was who believed in in studying understanding very well, your topic, your material, other leaders who were innovators in the military. So I tried to find those nuggets, and then you figure out how can I incorporate that positive trait into my, my personality or into my habits or into my thinking, and I would encourage all your listeners, young and old, but especially the young, find those people and try and learn from them and, and find out what works. And then of course, unfortunately, the negative lessons are always more powerful to right, you learn from negative leaders, what not to do, and I had a couple of those over time as well. So I've always tried to find those nuggets, both good and bad from people I work for. You know, innovation

David Novak 31:10 

is important in any business, especially in the military, where you felt we were behind when you came in as a Secretary of the Army. How did you go about sort of turning the tables and really getting people to think innovatively? The good thing is the army,

Dr. Mark Esper 31:27 

the military does try to cultivate that innovative thinking. And when it comes to tactical issues on the battlefield, we're really good. But when it comes to institutional practices, not so much, and, you know, the biggest challenge we had was, and it still exists in some ways, you know, a DOD bureaucracy that's very slow when it comes to adopting innovation. So there are famous stories about the army taking eight, nine years to buy a new handgun right, or 15 years to buy a new cannon artillery. And we decided that, you know, we had to reform the system. And one of the things we did was to establish what was called army futures command, it was the first major four star command in 40 years, we put it down in Austin, Texas, which is a hub of innovation, we didn't put it behind a barbed wire fence with MPs or anything. And then we told people, you're not going to be wearing a uniform down there, we want you in civilian clothes, we want you talking to academia, they were right there, co located with the University of Texas in this again, innovation hub. So we really tried to get around bureaucracy and, and red tape by standing up a whole new organization building a different culture and ethos around it, that would be able to move far more quickly, far more nimbly, and with a longer term perspective than what we were seeing within the Pentagon itself. You know,

David Novak 32:41 

Mark, I did a podcast with Sky named Geoff Colvin. He's the senior editor at large at Fortune Magazine, and he wrote a book called humans are underrated. And it's basically, you know, we can do what computers can't do. And he said that the the army did a fabulous job of teaching people how to collaborate, work on a team, and not to dominate on a team. You know, how did you institutionalize this kind of training where this guy's a subject matter expert, he says, there's nobody better at doing it than the military?

Dr. Mark Esper 33:14 

Well, that's good to hear. You know, we have our share of egos too. And a lot of times it's egos get in the way, right. People want to take credit, or they want to be the big dog in the room. And, and I think what you do is you get people to focus on the mission, not about themselves not about, not about who gets the credit. But how do you accomplish the mission? Who do you? Who do you use on the team? Who do you leverage most and the word servant leadership are used often it's about how do you how do you serve your subordinates? How do you support them to kind of unleash them to do great things? And so I think the big thing about the army is it's all about the team and not about me, or I, it's about we and us, and we preach that constantly. And you tend to find who the show horses are the people, we call them spotlight Rangers, to the folks who are trying to get all the attention for themselves. It's just not it's something that's really looked down upon in the military. Certainly the army when people try and take that approach where they put themselves first. You know, Mark,

David Novak 34:10 

this has been so much fun, and I always do a lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this?

Dr. Mark Esper 34:15 

I'm ready.

David Novak 34:16 

What are the three words that best describe you?

Dr. Mark Esper 34:20 

Optimistic, hard working? Integrity?

David Novak 34:25 

Who would play you in a movie?

Dr. Mark Esper 34:30 

Maybe you should ask my wife. I've picked somebody real good. I'm a big fan of Tom Cruise as she knows. So. I'm a little tough make sense.

David Novak 34:40 

If you could be one general, past or present, who would it be?

Dr. Mark Esper 34:44 

Well, you know, I have to say Marshall, because he's from my hometown and he is the most well regarded well respected. military hero in the Pentagon, believe it or not just the army but in the Pentagon writ large. If

David Novak 34:55 

you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?

Dr. Mark Esper 34:59 

The President I'd states, what's your biggest pet peeve? Lack of sense of urgency. I'm impatient.

David Novak 35:04 

Do you have any hidden talent?

Dr. Mark Esper 35:06 

I'm a big outdoorsman. I'm a I'm a climber, a kayaker, a hiker. I do a lot of skydive. I do a lot of outdoor sports. That's kind of my thing.

David Novak 35:17 

I was going to ask you, when was the last time you had a parachute on your back? About eight months ago? What's something about the military? You'd know? Only if you'd served in it?

Dr. Mark Esper 35:28 

All the acronyms?

David Novak 35:32 

What would you guess would be the number of times you stepped into the Oval Office?

Dr. Mark Esper 35:35 

Hundreds? Well, at least once a week, if not once every couple days?

David Novak 35:41 

If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear 80s Music. What's something about you? Few people would know, my

Dr. Mark Esper 35:49 

mother asserts that we are relatives of Ronald Reagan. She herself is a Reagan 100% Irish, her her family's side of family came over at the turn of the century, but she insists I've never seen any documentary proof but I'm not going to say she's fibbing, but she insists that we're relatives to Ronald Reagan.

David Novak 36:09 

A lot of people would sign up for that. Yeah, I'll sign up for that. That's the that's the end of the lightning round. And just a few more questions, we'll wrap this okay. You know, you and your wife, Leah have been married for close to 40 years, I think, what's the best leadership advice she's ever given you?

Dr. Mark Esper 36:24 

She's a good judge of character, she will be the one to tell me it will help me put it in perspective in terms of the person I'm dealing with or kind of, don't worry about the situation. It's not as bad as you think it is. right kind of help put things in perspective.

David Novak 36:40 

The best teams operate with a noble cause that guides them. I mean, you you talk about them having having a purpose. What's the story from your 21 years in uniform that speaks to why you served.

Dr. Mark Esper 36:52 

For me, I'd have to go back to national security and defending the country. And when I think about it, there's no specific story. But when I see all these young men and women that come into the military, and from all walks of life, some are coming to serve the country, some are coming because they want money for college, or they're just looking for a skill that they're going to parlay into a job when they get out three years, but but they come in with these different goals and but they all end up serving the same purpose. They're very mission oriented. I've seen young men and women, you know, in the middle of night shivering on guard duty or on a 20 mile road march just just bearing down and grinning the pain because they're training for combat or even in combat. You know, I remember us digging foxholes in southern Iraq, because we, we thought we might get attacked in the middle the night and everybody pulling together pulling their weight to accomplish the mission. And it's just inspiring because you don't see all those divisions that we see in our least our political space today, you don't see name calling, you don't see people judging somebody else's intentions the wrong way. You see a young group of Americans from all over the country, different walks of life, different ethnicities, religions, etc, just coming together, wearing the same uniform focused on the same mission. And sure, there's a little bit of griping about this and complaining about that. But we still it's very mission oriented. And that's quite inspiring to be able to, to kind of be part of an organization that's that's focused and unified and bringing people together in that way.

David Novak 38:17 

I got to ask you this, because I think it's really intriguing. You become the president united states, you have a huge sense of urgency, what do you do in your first 90 days?

Dr. Mark Esper 38:27 

First of all, I think you need to lead with a different tone, right in terms of speaking to both parties. Again, no name calling, no ascribing mal intention to the other side there. We know there are people like that on both sides of the aisle. But I think you have to bring a different tone to Washington DC, you have to be able to govern the way Reagan did sitting down with, you know, the Democratic Speaker of the House, if that's the case, and finding rational solutions not going for 100%. Heck, Reagan talked about 80%, I take 60% These days, to try and move your agenda down the road. And so I think first of all, it's the tone you bring to the country. And then second, I'm concerned about the budgets we the budget deficits and debt we face these days, I think it's it has an impact on where we spend money today. It's going to have an impact on a spending in the future interest rates and a number of things. So I'm quite concerned about our monetary not I shouldn't say just our monetary policy, but our fiscal policy as well when it comes to debts and deficits in our budgeting. So to me, those are very big problems. Now we got like human issues, immigration reform, how do we how do we make sure the best and brightest continue to come into this country and make sure we tap into that great talent. That's how countries grow by by leveraging the best of the talent that's out there. And we're not necessarily doing that but either from people coming in or from people already in the country. So I think there are a lot of things that we could do that can bring us together but I think striking the right tone, and bring that into Office is most important.

David Novak 39:51 

What do you think is the biggest threat our country faces today? extreme

Dr. Mark Esper 39:56 

political partisanship from both sides of the aisle? More so than China and Russia, yes. Because until both political parties can cooperate, you can't really put together the most effective most comprehensive policies to deal with the Russians and Chinese or to deal with immigration or to deal with the debt and the deficit. I mean, the the debts $32 trillion, 32 trillion, we're never going to pay that off in our lifetime. So I think until you get a different tone in DC, and, and really mitigate this political partisanship, and allow people to come together and work through problems. I think it's a big middle out there that just doesn't get much attention, it's gonna be really hard to move forward. And that's my biggest concern for the country right now.

David Novak 40:40 

Last question, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give someone who really wanted to be an outstanding leader,

Dr. Mark Esper 40:47 

I would say go out there. And in your day to day life, whether it's while you're on the job, or whether you're volunteering or coaching the soccer team, be observant, and listen and watch the leaders who are out there and watch how people react to them and try and adopt those traits and personalities and behaviors that inspire others, and purge yourself of those behaviors that turn others off, and we all have them. And so I think that is Be observant, you can learn a lot from the people around you. And from the people that you see day in day out. You don't you don't have to study George Marshall or George Patton, or, or Ronald Reagan, or you know, Churchill, whoever, you don't have to study them. Just watch day to day, you can see great leaders around you all the time. And they're there in very subtle ways. They're not always the loudest person, but they're usually the most effective. They're usually one that people pay attention to and that listen to,

David Novak 41:39 

you know, Mark, I want to thank you for the courage that you've demonstrated, and one of the top roles in our country. And I want to thank you for your passion for our country and what we can be. And, you know, I

Dr. Mark Esper 41:53 

wish you all the luck. Now, one thing I didn't ask you. And I don't know if it really is appropriate at this stage, but I will ask you this. Why do you entitle your book, a sacred oath? Because for me, it's summed up both the successes and trials that I had as Secretary of Defense, and in my view, and I take my first took the oath at age at the age of 18, when I put that uniform, first on at West Point, and I took it a dozen times after that. And to me, it said oath to the Constitution, the United States that, you know, you'll defend that great document from from all foes, right, foreign and domestic. And you have to live that oath, you have to believe it. And it's, you know, I said, I've only taken a couple oaths in my lifetime. One was that one, which I took a dozen times, and of course, the you know, my marriage vows to my wife, and you have to live, you have to believe in those things and hold them up. And at the end of the day, when times got tough, or I faced really difficult decisions, I would ask myself, you know, what is my oath? What does it mean? Who is it to, and as I've said, on numerous occasions, it's not to a president. It's not to a party. It's not to political philosophy. But it's to that constitution, it's that document, and really, by extension to the country and the American people. And that's who at the end of the day your allegiance is to when you serve in government, either as a civilian or a military leader, your oath is to that constitution, and to the American people, who are your fellow citizens. And that's at the end of the day was my Touchstone and I think all leaders have to find out what is their Touchstone when times get tough, what's, what is true north point for them, and I think you have to figure that out before you take the job, or as soon as you take that job, because tough times will come. And you need that you need that true north have to kind of guide you through those tough days.

David Novak 43:39 

Thank you very much. That's great. I really appreciate you taking the time, Mark.

Dr. Mark Esper 43:44 

Thank you, David, I appreciate the joy of this conversation. I appreciate what you're doing trying to share leadership traits and skills with others out there, I think the more we can help the next generation or even today's the current generation all the better.

David Novak 44:06 

Well, it comes as no surprise to you that I love getting leadership lessons from every industry and every sector. But there's a special place in my heart for military leaders. I mean, these men and women know how to lead when the stakes couldn't be higher in the trenches under fire when the decisions are literally life and death. It makes me so so grateful for Mark Esper and every single person who served our country in this way, and hey, if you're a military veteran listening right now, let me just say from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your service. But you know, talking to Mark, something that really stood out to me is just what a powerful force a shared mission can be. That's a vital lesson no matter who you lead, and where you lead. When you're trying to build a team that's coming from all walks of life when disagreements arise between superiors and staff. When egos flare up, it's that bigger focus on the mission that can grease the skids and get everybody working together. This week, I want you to grab a little sticky note and just write these four words on it. Focus on the mission. Let it be a reminder to you to keep the bigger picture front and center. Encourage your team to pick their heads up out of the details. And remember the bigger goal that you're all working towards, use your voice to elevate that mission. And it really will be a game changer for you and your team. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders keep the mission in mind. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Yamini Rondon, CEO of HubSpot, and one of the most customer focused executives I've ever talked to.

Yamini Rangan 45:53 

If you look at the history, a lot of companies that have been maybe at our scale and have grown, they don't do it by becoming like peanut butter spreading all of their resources. They get from good to great by being focused on a handful that you can truly when we're paying attention to the things that we say no to. You have to be able to say no to good ideas in order for you to be able to execute great ideas. And that comes with this principle of Fortune favors the focus.

David Novak 46:26 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be